who are you to say its not possible?

there are a lot of things messed up in religions

i dont have the patience right now to read thru all this - so ill just state my opinion. i believe in god... but really i think he created humans and gave us free will as he own form of personal entertainment. im born roman catholic but i dunno - sometimes i feel like he stopped caring about most of us a long time ago.

What's the difference between there being an infinite being with no beginning or end and no creator, and there being infinite space with no beginning or end with no creator? It's almost as if atheists and theists essentially agree except whether the "infinite" thing is a "being" or "space".

Last edited by Slickster 15 years ago

NOTE: This argument only applies to an infinite God we see in the Christian (and other monotheistic) Bibles, in the omnipotent and omniscient sense. I define him thus.

Original argument:

Premise 1: God is infinite

Premise 2: God doesn't change with respect to time.

From (2) -> dGod/dTime = 0

dGod = 0 * dTime

[Integrate] God = 0 + C = C, where C is some constant

By definition, C < infinite.

God < Infinite

(1) and (2) lead to a contradictory conclusion

Therefore, God cannot be both infinite and constant.

God does not exist in the universe defined by our mathematical laws.

The easy Christian response to this is that "God exists outside of our mathematical laws!". Here is the refutation [using modal logic]:

Definition: A being is god in some world W if it is God-like in that world. [Being is omnipotent, omnipresent, etc.]

Definition: A being is God if it is god in all worlds.

Premise 1: It is possible that God exists

In some world, God exists

Therefore, possibly it is necessarily true that God exists.

In the world where God exists, it is necessary that God exists

Therefore, it is necessarily true that God exists.

The previous statement implies that some world W exists where it is necessarily true that God exists. In this world, God necessarily exists.

Therefore, God exists.

By definition, if God exists in a world, then God exists in all worlds

Note that the above argument is all but universally agreed upon by logicians. The weird feeling you get from the fifth statement is because we usually use "possibly" and "necessarily" in a different way.

However, from the first argument, we know that for some world W, no god exists.

Therefore, no god can exist in all worlds.

Therefore, no god is God.

Therefore, the conclusion that the premise implies to is false.

Therefore, the premise is false.

From this, we can conclude the following:

It is not possible that God exists.

Last edited by Odin 15 years ago

Wait excuse me .. no one says God is defined by our laws of science and mathematics! Our laws do not apply to a divine being obviously, but at the same time, infiniteness of the universe also defies the SAME logic, which was my point.

jay you need to shotgun some beer

Quite true Jay, quite true. It's just sad that a belief is usually set in stone and closes ones mind. It's going to sound funny but just like in the movie Dogma. "People die and kill over beliefs. Isn't it better to have a good idea?" Not a verbatim quote but it's close enough.

I know there is always the rare occasion minority that can put personal beliefs aside and actually listen to what others have to say, but that is few and far between. Most of the time it's a "Nope, you're wrong because science PROVES otherwise ( even though the proof is theory or has a shitton of holes in it ) or vice verse and GOD is REAL because a book said so.

Yes generalized but just throwing the "general" idea out there that beliefs tend to skew each side of the argument and not in the favor of the person that holds the "hardcore" belief.

Not throwing anyone or any religion under the bus here. THIS IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE. I have heard hardcore Christian's just belittle peaceful Muslim's because in their personal view all Muslim's are bad and do harm. To them a Christian never causes harm only good. You should see the look on their face when I bring up the Crusades......

Just simply trying to make the point, no matter your outlook it would behoove anyone that chooses to engage in these types of conversations to put a "hardcore" outlook aside and to keep an open mind. If anything it will make for a nice debate and not one filled with "Nu Uh"/"Uh Huh".

Have fun in your void of darkness and nothingness (smirk14)

this is not related to this thread in any way, but please check out the poster and reason

http://www.prisonblock.com/hitlist/contract/c5a1e0